The wonderful thing about the Internet is that one tactard can take the position of an expert and claim another one an idiot and since no one can walk up to him and slap the narcissistic smile off his face, no harm no foul. Well, not so fast.
A post on the Active Response Training web site by someone named Greg Ellifritz states, rather blatantly, that “Most gunwriters are idiots.” He goes on to say, “The majority are writers who have an interest in shooting. They aren’t shooters who have an interest in writing. (How would he know this unless he has met “most” gun writers and had a conversation with them?) There is a big difference between those two types of people… I’ve had several well known gunwriters as students over the years and I’ve been universally unimpressed with their performance.”
(If you are a gunwriter and have taken a class from this fellow, please stand up and be recognized.)
Mr. Ellifritz seems particularly disturbed by an article penned by Jim Higginbotham discussing handgun stopping power. Now, I have never met Mr. Ellifritz or Mr. Higginbothan but I don’t really need to read Mr. Higginbothan’s article and I’m pretty sure I don’t want to take a class from Mr. Ellifritz.
Why?
First things first, there is no such thing as handgun stopping power as it is often discussed so why waste your time trying to discredit theories relating to something that does not exist. It’s like arguing if Batman is straight or gay. Pointless. Definitively quantifying the difference in the ability of a 9mm or a .45 to bring about incapacitation is like trying to prove which tastes better, a Snickers or a Milky Way. This is why I tend to lean toward the better than average concept with regard to defensive handgun ammunition and good shot placement.
Secondly, any man who makes a statement to the effect that most gun writers are idiots is obviously not someone who I want to spend any time around because I will not respect him and he will not respect me. Are some gun writers idiots? For sure! Just like some tactard trainers. (Like I’ve said before, the further you get from Gunsite Academy, the less faith you can have in your training.)
I will say that I agree with Mr. Ellifritz with regard to there not being “much” difference between service caliber handguns but I don’t think he and I will be drinking a beer together and celebrating our common ground very soon.
First he is going to have to apologize. Not to me but to a bunch of other folks; some who were writing about guns before he was wiping his ass. Folks like Jeff Cooper, Craig Boddington, Finn Aaggard, John Barness, Jim Wilson, Dick Williams, Wiley Clapp, Ned Roberts, Skeeter Skelton and his son Bart, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, John Haviland, Ron Spomer, Bryce Towsley, Jim Cirrilo…shall I go on?
It also seems somewhat ironic that a guy would write a gun article and claim that most gun writers are idiots and then at the bottom of his article say, “If you don’t want to miss any more articles like this, sign up for my email updates.”
One thing’s for sure, the best way to get attention on the Internet is to be negative about someone or something. I try to avoid doing that but, I guess the idiot in me is coming out. Well, Mr. Ellifritz, you have the world’s attention. What now?
Quoth the RAM:”Ron Spomer, Bryce Towsley, Jim Cirrilo…shall I go on?”…..WoW you musta been in a great mood to have included that name that’s in the middle…irregardless of how that Ellifritz fella made you feel.hahahahaha…..
Randy, Bryce and I do not agree on some things but he does not pull what he writes from between his butt cheeks. He shoots, tests and forms an opinion. Sometimes its just wrong 🙂
Civility has been dead a long time. This death is starting to show in our culture, even in polite circles. It will get worse.
One of the marks of modern liberalism is to personalize any disagreement. The aforementioned blogger did that by calling gun writers ‘idiots’ instead of simply saying he disagreed with some of them (and then having the courtesy to mention the specific ones, and then mention why he disagreed with them). But I see the same thing in some of the responses…in Jim Wilson’s FB feed, several commenters posted how they thought the blogger was wrong for being uncivil, then proceeded to call him vile names (like f***ing pec***head, for example).
Whatever happened to arguing points on their merits, and other civil discourse? And what about holding an opinion without thinking everyone with a different opinion is a hater, or a ‘phobe’? I’ve got a bumper sticker that says, “An armed society is a polite society.” I guess that’s not true any more.
It doesn’t take rocket science to see where an armed, rude society will go, and it won’t be in the direction of more gun rights.
Doc, the problem with the Internet where most of live now days is that we are all armed with a keyboard. Folks need to act on-line like they would face to face.
Rhetorically speaking it’s kind of bizarre to preface a pseudo rebuttal with “I didn’t read it, but…”, and I have to say I find the mental ability slur (“tard”) pretty off-putting as well, in an article purporting to promote civility.
Well, I have trained with both Jim and Greg and they will
both recognize me. I’m a gunwriter so I will stand up and be
recognized. I’ve also been the Chief Instructor at the Rogers
Shooting School, the most demanding shooting school in the world.
Unfortunately, the issue has fallen to the level of being personal
rather than a technical discussion. Greg’s work on documentation of
the effectiveness of various calibers is first rate and very well
documented. In that sense, he has provided significantly more open
source data to demonstrate his point than Jim has. That’s probably
why he reacted to Jim’s piece in the way he did. Speaking from the
perspective of being a professional researcher, the firearms
training industry and gun writing community really don’t do a
particularly good job of conducting methodical research. Both
segments are rife with anecdotes portrayed as data. And what passes
for analyses generally wouldn’t pass muster with a high school
science teacher. That’s too bad because there is getting to be a
lot more data out there. But not much of it is mined, aggregated,
and thoughtfully analyzed. For instance, I’m pretty sure that Greg,
Paul Sharp in Illinois, and I are the only people in the industry
who have studied the largest collection of gunfight data in the
country, the LAPD Categorical Use of Force Reports, in any depth.
However, Richard, your statement “Like I’ve said before, the
further you get from Gunsite Academy, the less faith you can have
in your training.” is an insult to the many good schools that teach
defensive pistol work. I am disappointed you made that statement.
If you’ve made it more than once, I am even more disappointed.
Given the opportunity, let’s discuss it over coffee in the Media
Room at the SHOT Show.
Claude,
Thanks for you note. Let me address your comments:
The issue as you call it never was technical from my standpoint, by calling a large majority of a certain section of the firearms industry idiots, it was personal from the start. Mr. Ellifritz obviously wanted attention by the way he titled his post and I hope to help him find it. He should have reacted to Jim’s piece by calling out Jim not disparaging a group that includes many fine upstanding individuals that make a living writing about guns. Some – maybe me included – might be idiots. After all, the world is full of them.
Your research and knowledge may qualify you and the others you name as experts on gunshot wounds and I applaud you on your efforts.
With regard to my comments on Gunsite, I stand by them. Gunsite founded defensive firearms training and has set the standard. It is the highest level of education with regard to the topic. That’s not saying there are not other locations that do not provide good training (I’ve trained at some of them.) but none have turned out more students trained in the modern technique of the pistol. No insult intended, just fact.
AS far as SHOT Show, I will not be there this year. It is my first absence in 12 years. I promised my son that if he made varsity captain I would not miss a game and a man has to keep his word.
Let me reiterate the purpose of my post in case some missed it while looking for an argument to get into over a topic as muddled and grounded in chaos as “handgun stopping power.” It is most unprofessional for someone to disparage a group of folks based on limited exposure to a few of that group. I’m sure that Mr. Ellifritz is a fine fellow and his resume is impressive. I’m also sure if we met and talked we would agree on many topics related to terminal ballistics and other firearms matters.
He was, simply, out of line.
RAM
I’m not sure if my comment posted, Richard, but we should
definitely talk about this over coffee in the Media Room at the
SHOT Show. I am a gunwriter and I’ve trained with both Greg and
Jim. They both know me quite well.
Mr. Mann, It appears your rebuttal is every bit as
inciteful as Greg’s blog. Was it the “Most Gun Writer’s Are Idiots”
that got you fired up? Did you take personal umbrage to his title
based on your profession? I am sorry to say sir, he’s correct.
While you listed some of the biggest and best known names in the
recent history of gun writing you also left out a few. What about
Dick Metcalf? Caleb Giddings? Whathisname from RECOIL? If I
bothered to read gun rags I could probably name more. Is it even
possible that he was referring to the guys that still recommend a J
frame revolver to every female they come across “Because it will
fit your smaller hands better, little lady.”? Or perhaps he was
talking about the guys that proudly proclaim that criminals will
“wet themselves upon hearing you rack the slide on a shotgun. It’s
the most recognized sound in the world.” I’ve met and trained with
Jim Higginbotham. I found him to be an excellent trainer, very
personable and a most impressive shooter. He’s also an unabashed
fan of the .45 ACP and the 1911 platform. I personally disagree
with his assessment of the perceived performance superiority of the
.45 ACP and the 1911. So what? I’ve yet to meet Greg Ellifritz in
person but I am friends with several people who have. I look
forward to the day that I will actually meet him and hope to have
the opportunity to train under him as well. Greg will most likely
be at the SHOT show. If you do have the opportunity to meet him you
may want to rethink your desire to ” slap the narcissistic smile
off his face”. He’s seen the varmint a time or two. You might want
to pack a lunch if that’s your goal. SW
Steve,
My post was intended to be insightful but I directed my remarks at one person as opposed to a sizeable segment of the firearms industry. Did I take it personal? Yes I did because I know and respect many of the folks he insulted. If you agree with him we have nothing more to discuss.
RAM
So you berate Greg for not having an open discussion and then refuse to do the same? I tell my son that’s a “Do as I say and not as I do” philosophy. While that might work occasionally with a 13 year old it doesn’t work with grown ups.
I learned a long time ago that my friends don’t need me to get offended for them. To do so is just another way of looking for a fight. To do it from behind the safety of the distance and anonymity provided by the Internet is juvenile.
Regarding Gunsite…Dogma much?
The bottom line is this….if Greg would have exercised basic manners and professionalism in his writing there would never have been an issue or this discussion. You can disagree with someone without making it personal. Greg obviously forgot this basic truth. And, for the record, I agree whole heartedly with Richard’s praise for Gunsite. Too many other schools are just faint copies.
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Anyone interested in defending Higginbotham’s article on substance rather than on him being a Great Guy? Anyone standing up to defend his outdated ‘research’ as relevant n 2013?
It is very easy to turn this into an emotional issue (or let it continue to be, depending on when you tuned in) , but what about the underlying points for those who don’t give a crap about any of the people involved and just want to learn about how to defend themselves and their families?
Tradition and Loyalty to one’s friends are great things that make the world better. But, I fear that many of the people in our industry sometimes forget that the 25 year old single mom in Illinois that wants to take advantage of the new CCW laws doesn’t give a rats ass about who’s who in the world of gun-training-history… she just needs solid info. If you’ve got a soapbox, maybe consider standing up for her, not just your favorite brand or your sewing circle.
-RJP
Rob,
I’ve had about enough of this silliness and I’ve given those who took issue with my words room here to voice their opinion.
The statement about most gun writers being idiots was unprofessional, irresponsible and most importantly, incorrect. Had he said most firearms trainers or cops were idiots, I would have taken the same stance.
By the way, there are some guns writers that a single mom in Illinois should be reading.
RAM
This seems to be nothing more than the pot calling what he believes to be the kettle, black. When you call someone out for being what you perceive as unprofessional, and you start it out by referring to this person as a “tactard” after admitting you’ve never met the person and know nothing about the person, your credibility sinks to zero. Subsequently, I believe the title of this blog, “Empty Cases”, is spot on.
And then you go on to take part in the very lack of professionalism you accuse the author of the other piece of doing. You promote Gunsite while intentionally attempting to degrade every other good instructor/good training school out there. Hypocrite much?
You should have read the both articles before ranting. The information in Greg’s article is solid. The point Greg is making is that many “gun writers” are just parroting what has already been said by others who were equally misinformed — leading to grossly inaccurate beliefs. He is encouraging people to read information that is based on fact and conjecture or 100 yr old books or myth.
Also, Greg deadlifts 600lbs and cleans 300, so the inability of people to slap him goes well beyond the short comings of the internet.
Richard…After listening to this occasionally interesting and awfully long-winded exchange I have some advice that I hope you will consider. Just hang some mistletoe on the back of your pants and go on down the road!
Jim, I agree. Nuff said.
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